How about a permanent "Dangerous Places" topic?

[Norm Head]

Anyplace I am is dangerous, you'd have to update it 12 hours a day when I'm on the water.  But of course, this reminds me of a story.

I was going down a river with an inexperienced guy named Cal in my Coleman. I mentioned a few clicks early that we had  a waterfall and a portage coming up. There was this thick brush on the sides of the bank. Every time we got close to the bank Cal would grab the branches and try and convince me to portage the canoe through the brush on the shore until we got to the waterfall, just to be safe. Of course I would be doing the carrying, he'd be "scouting". So after I got back on the water, after a pile of convincing, I started doing this thing to amuse myself. I'd let the canoe drift towards shore, as soon as Cal reached for the branches I'd do a hard steering stroke and he'd almost fall out of the boat trying to get the branches.

Well this continued for at least a klick, when finally I started to hear the waterfall. so I pulled back to the middle of the river, (fun over) and started looking for the portage. When I finally saw it and started steering towards it, Cal turned around with a quizical look on his face and said "Norm, do you hear a jet plane?"

When I was talking to the guys at the lunch table I sat at (in Timmins), i was talking about running rivers. The guys told me they "didn't do that". I asked why. One of the guys said " I went over a waterfall once and wrecked my canoe." I looked up the one he went over and it was clearly marked and according to the MNR had a clearly marked portage.

Trying to decide what is dangerous for those who don't take their maps seriously is pointless. If you can't read a map, every little thing is dangerous. If you can read the map, and can keep your ears open, you're going to be safe. SOme of the route maps I have of Northern Rivers have 20 portages on them, and everyone is dangerous if you are incompetent, ie. can't execute a simple ferry. Your thread will be so long no one will be able to find anything in it.

We already have a way to warn others of dangers. They are called trip reports. Every time I go on a trip I read every one I can find for the route I'm going on and the good ones I print and take with me. The next days' travel is examined thoroughly before we leave in the morning and the relevant pages of the trip report are left exposed in my map case so I can refresh my memory when the time comes. And when I get back I write one. The time to read a warning is right before your approach, before you are in any danger. I suggest you learn to take advantage of them. And learn to write them. You can warn everyone who follows what you think the dangers are. And they allow others to accurately assess your skill level to determine if what you have to offer has any relevance to them.

OH, and one last question.. you're on a big river, you know you're within a klick of a rapid or falls, why in heavens name would you be lolligagging? Try sitting up, paying attention watching for things that might mess you up. There is absolutely nothing you can do to save lolligaggers. They won't even read your warnings.

[Sundown]

Anyplace I am is dangerous, you'd have to update it 12 hours a day when I'm on the water.  But of course, this reminds me of a story.

I was going down a river with an inexperienced guy named Cal in my Coleman. I mentioned a few clicks early that we had  a waterfall and a portage coming up. There was this thick brush on the sides of the bank. Every time we got close to the bank Cal would grab the branches and try and convince me to portage the canoe through the brush on the shore until we got to the waterfall, just to be safe. Of course I would be doing the carrying, he'd be "scouting". So after I got back on the water, after a pile of convincing, I started doing this thing to amuse myself. I'd let the canoe drift towards shore, as soon as Cal reached for the branches I'd do a hard steering stroke and he'd almost fall out of the boat trying to get the branches.

Well this continued for at least a klick, when finally I started to hear the waterfall. so I pulled back to the middle of the river, (fun over) and started looking for the portage. When I finally saw it and started steering towards it, Cal turned around with a quizical look on his face and said "Norm, do you hear a jet plane?"

When I was talking to the guys at the lunch table I sat at (in Timmins), i was talking about running rivers. The guys told me they "didn't do that". I asked why. One of the guys said " I went over a waterfall once and wrecked my canoe." I looked up the one he went over and it was clearly marked and according to the MNR had a clearly marked portage.

Trying to decide what is dangerous for those who don't take their maps seriously is pointless. If you can't read a map, every little thing is dangerous. If you can read the map, and can keep your ears open, you're going to be safe. SOme of the route maps I have of Northern Rivers have 20 portages on them, and everyone is dangerous if you are incompetent, ie. can't execute a simple ferry. Your thread will be so long no one will be able to find anything in it.

We already have a way to warn others of dangers. They are called trip reports. Every time I go on a trip I read every one I can find for the route I'm going on and the good ones I print and take with me. The next days' travel is examined thoroughly before we leave in the morning and the relevant pages of the trip report are left exposed in my map case so I can refresh my memory when the time comes. And when I get back I write one. The time to read a warning is right before your approach, before you are in any danger. I suggest you learn to take advantage of them. And learn to write them. You can warn everyone who follows what you think the dangers are. And they allow others to accurately assess your skill level to determine if what you have to offer has any relevance to them.

OH, and one last question.. you're on a big river, you know you're within a klick of a rapid or falls, why in heavens name would you be lolligagging? Try sitting up, paying attention watching for things that might mess you up. There is absolutely nothing you can do to save lolligaggers. They won't even read your warnings.

Normstar

"... Knew Therwuz Reazun Fer Keepinya Rownd..."

(PS... mosta those "MNR Portages" up in Northa-Temagami... they ask me to clear... so... 'Map-Beware'. too...right?)

Sundown

[Norm Head]

(PS... mosta those "MNR Portages" up in Northa-Temagami... they ask me to clear... so... 'Map-Beware'. too...right?)

Now that might be a topic for a thread. A buddy who used to be head of the mapping department for Ontario Hydro was telling me he's seen features on maps that were 13 klicks from where they were supposed to be. If people come across inaccuracies in topos, that might be worth cataloging and data basing for future reference. My understanding is the maps were drawn from aerial photographs so I have no idea how a mistake of that magnitude could be made. But I ran into one instance, Upper Goose Falls on the Sturgeon River   was 1.5 km south of where my GPS said it would be. My problem is I used a hand calibrated map to derive the co-ordinates. The other waypoints were within 50 meters of where they were supposed to be on the trip. I suspect Upper Goose Falls is shown on the map in the wrong place. I'd want someone else to get the same result however before I posted that. It really wasn't a problem, it just meant I started looking for the falls 15 minutes to soon. But someone might want to know for some hair brained reason I guess. If they don't find the falls in the right place, I guess they could start lolligagging.

[mark the splasher]

one of the experienced guys elsewhere mentioned to me that as elevation levels change so do landmarks.  this is ok if a rock-point changes shape etc, but in his case, he wondered if he had gone down the wrong 1 km path because he ended up near a big pond not shown on the map. he deduced the depression location on the map and figured out the rest.  disconcerting though. not quite as alarming as completely wrong maps but maybe at times we have to let our minds imagine a few options.
  i menioned my experienced friend that was with me in Tem last year. he watched the map carefully for the first 5 or so key spots, was viewing the area with a map in his hand even if we weren't going that way...then declared the map trustworthy.  he started with the assumption it could be vague or out of date.  later when we bushwacked a day trip he mentioned a few times, 'well, we can assume if the map is accurate then..."  I just assume everyone knows more than me and to trust it which now seems foolish.
In Killarney a few years ago, in the Pig to Muriel section, much had changed the year we did it, and I tried to highlight that in the TR.  for maps, maybe that is the best we can do each time,realistically

[Sundown]

Norm

A good Client of mine runs the Cartography division here in Ottawa for NRCAN, and I regularly contribute map updates and have seen the system and how it works, as well.

NRCAN catalogs all changes and advisories as they occur (or, as they are notified, at least).
These changes, once verified as fact, are entered into their database.

Most (or many) maps are printed (and sold) based on a certain 'reference date'... and, some maps being printed/sold today
may actually be based on (say) a 1990 reference date, with the next scheduled 'new map series' to be issued (say) in 2015.

Over the course of that 25 year time span, changes are merely catalogued and entered into the data base for the 'next' scheduled
map series (say) in 2015.

It is massively expensive to verify and catalog and re-issue "supposedly" current maps on a shorter time span.

Basically.... "A Map Is A Map... Not A Photograph".

The Environment, as we all know, is a "dynamic and ever-changing reality".

A Map Is a More "Static" thing...

Sundown

[littleredcanoe]

You are right.. but the main problem is that there are probably many falls that at least some water levels can draw the "lets get a little closer to get that picture cluse up" people..

Its odd that I have never seen this written in canoeing books.

Some falls are fine but those that pour an immense amount of water and seem to make very little splash can be killers. They kind of act like low head dams.